More Elizabeth Truss info from Nursery World

**rickysmiths** · 21-05-2012, 01:33 PM

This has just hit my email.

Makes interesting reading. One of the models that has been held high is that used in Holland. Apparently it was introduced in 2005 and hasn't worked so they are changing things there again

Sorry I didn't put the link in!!

http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/b...eryWorldUpdate

**caz3007** · 21-05-2012, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

This has just hit my email.

Makes interesting reading. One of the models that has been held high is that used in Holland. Apparently it was introduced in 2005 and hasn't worked

I briefly read that somewhere on one of the links, but Holland backtracked over it

**rickysmiths** · 21-05-2012, 01:38 PM

That seems to be the case.

Daycare Trust chief executive Anand Shukla said that deregulating childminders would not solve the UK's childcare problems.

'We do not believe that the model implemented in the Netherlands since 2005 has worked, and indeed many of the changes have been reversed. The Dutch reforms led to lower quality childcare, did not increase the number of high quality childminders in the profession, as the increase in numbers was largely due to grandparents registering as childminders; did not have a noticeable impact on maternal employment; and saw bureaucracy increase, due to the introduction of a layer of agencies.

**loocyloo** · 21-05-2012, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

That seems to be the case.

Daycare Trust chief executive Anand Shukla said that deregulating childminders would not solve the UK's childcare problems.

'We do not believe that the model implemented in the Netherlands since 2005 has worked, and indeed many of the changes have been reversed. The Dutch reforms led to lower quality childcare, did not increase the number of high quality childminders in the profession, as the increase in numbers was largely due to grandparents registering as childminders; did not have a noticeable impact on maternal employment; and saw bureaucracy increase, due to the introduction of a layer of agencies.

i just read that too! hope elizabeth trust has seen it too.

**caz3007** · 21-05-2012, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by loocyloo

i just read that too! hope elizabeth trust has seen it too.

Shall we all email it to her via her constituency page...lol

**adele1985** · 21-05-2012, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by caz3007

Shall we all email it to her via her constituency page...lol

i was just thinking that

**rickysmiths** · 21-05-2012, 04:57 PM

I have just sent her this email via her constituency page.

Good Afternoon Ms Truss,

I am a Registered Childminder who has been following you radio interviews and comments in the news today.

With the greatest of respect I don’t think from what you have been saying that you have the first idea what a Registered childminder is or how they work.

I have been registered for 18 years now. I first registered to be able to stay at home with my own two children who were 11 mths and 20 mths old. I had paid for my older child to go to a childminder when I returned to work when she was 6 mths old. Indeed it cost 60% of my wages and there was no help via Tax Credits or Childcare Vouchers for me to use the way there is for parents now. I realised it would not be possible to have two children in childcare and so I registered as a Childminder.

The process then was more straight forward than it is now. I did have expenses though, Public liability Insurance and reg fee with Social Services £10 per year. We did not pay for our First Aid Course. It didn’t cost me any extra on my Household Insurance or my car Insurance. I purchased a second hand double buggy for £35 and used my own children’s toys to start with. I took on a 16 week old baby every afternoon term time only. This suited me as I had the morning with my children and my husband is a teacher. I think I earned about £65 per week for the 39 weeks of term. I did no other training to be able to register though I did take advantage of training courses put on by my local SS Dept from time to time.

During the years from 1994 to 2001 I was inspected every year, I knew the Social Services staff (indeed I still get messages from my Registration Officer through a mutual friend), I could ask for help and advise, they knew me and my set up and it all worked very well.

In 2001 Ofsted took over. My goodness I was quaking in my boots just before my first inspection, something I had never done prior to this one. A young girl who didn’t know me or my set up ( I was 46yrs then so she seemed very young!) asked some ridiculous questions asked for most personal information and an enormous amount of paperwork so she could establish I was who I said I was. My Social services dept carried out a Police check on me every few years as they did during my registering process. Ofsted have never CRB checked me, not in 11 years! Why? Because they said when they took over in 2001 it was too expensive to CRB check all existing childminders so they didn’t !

The amount of paper evidence Ofsted required got more and more, partly because unlike the local Social Services, Ofsted inspectors come and go you never see the same one twice so you have to prove each time what you are doing, they seem incapable of recognising good practice when they see it. With the advent of EYFS in 2008 even more paperwork, a lot of it so Ofsted had written evidence of what good childminders have always done.

However, I do agree with EYFS as a good basic structure to work with and that all Early Years work with the same formula. We were given good training in Hertfordshire and there has always been good training opportunities in the County, though as with all things they are being reduced due to budget cuts. I have always been to training courses as I learn new skills and keep myself up to date and refreshed. During the last year I have also undertaken the Level Three Diploma Children and the Young People’s workforce. I do this and all the other training in my own unpaid time outside of the hours *****mind. I always did scrapbooks for my children so the Learning Journals we all do are just an extension of what I was doing anyway. All the Risk Assessments have added a huge amount of paperwork. I also feel sorry for new parents signing up for my services because of the number of forms they have to sign and the information they have to take in. It is good business practice and I wouldn’t do it any other way now.

Also since starting childminding the basic costs have risen, Ofsted annual fees £35 ( I actually think they should be more like £200pa), Information Commissioners Registration £35pa, If applicable A PPL Licence for music (approx£200pa), Public Liability Insurance approx £25-55pa depending on who you insure through. £100 every 3yrs for First Aid. The expectation of resources has increased so we are always adding to these and I don’t believe a new childminder would get away the same way as I did started by using their own children’s toys. I can absorb these costs in my fees because I have been lucky enough to be mainly full and I can claim expenses against Tax etc. Not all childminders are so lucky.
I have had three under fives five days and 50 hours a week and for a number of years and exception from Ofsted to have a fourth because they were a sibling, plus two before and after school. I then do all my paperwork and training, cleaning, washing,(sheets, blankets, car seat covers, buggy covers, towels) shopping (for food for mindees and buying resourses) on top of the 50 hours I spend with the children and am paid for.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not complaining, I love my work and would not still be doing it after 18 years if I didn’t, or without the support of my husband and two children because this all happens in their home.

I have always been graded good and for the last two inspections with some Outstanding areas as well and I am proud of that and have always worked hard to offer what I feel is an excellent service to my parents. I have worked longer hours than my local nurseries and I am working Sat and Sun at the moment as well which they do not. My fees are less than theirs.

Could you please explain why my local Nursery, who has never been graded higher than a Satisfactory, has not got the best reputation, is privately owned and a profit making business, could possibly be
qualified to inspect and regulate me? I think it should be the other way round and maybe the Nursery Standards would improve and benefit from my experience and high standards? I’m sure the ones on your Constituency would be delighted to do the job because they would be paid to do it. Goody, goody more profits for them and paid by me from my much smaller income! Maybe the Day Nurseries should also be told to reduce their high costs they way you are saying childminders whose earning potential is much less should do?

I think you need to spend a day with a childminder and see how their work differs from a day nursery and how 0- 3yr olds thrive with a good childminder . The way they go out and about in their local community and beyond (if you do visit a cm take some good walking shoes with you!) the way our local nurseries say they do but don’t. See how flexible we are, we offer wrap around care and care for 5- 13-14 yr olds, collect from school, take to brownies and cubs, something no day nursery can offer a parent or after school club. Babysitting services in the evening giving the parents continuity of care for their child. A month ago I was called at 4.30 am by a parents and went to their home to look after a mindee while mum went into hospital to have baby 2.

We have all worked so hard over the last few years with EYFS to become better trained and to match the work done in Nurseries and I believe good childminders have exceeded the standards offered by many nurseries. It would be a shame for our parents to de regulate us and so make us seem second best and not being registered no longer being able to accept Childcare Vouchers or parents who claim Tax Credits which would be a great disadvantage to childminders.

The Dutch Model adopted in 2005 has been proven not to work and they are currently changing what they are doing. Why are you so keen to support a failed model?

Can I be radicle and suggest that the government claw back some money by withdrawing all 2 and 3 year old funding except for those in extreme circumstances that need help, reduce Maternity benefits to six months and make it clear that if you left a full time job you expect to go back to a full time job as was the case when i had my children. I’m sure industry and particularly small companies would applaud this move. I know of several small companies who have found it very very hard when staff go on maternity leave.

Also when you talk about expensive childcare remind people that they can get tax credits which can pay up to 70% of their childcare costs for them (this never was mentioned by the ‘hard done by’ parents or yourself but means up to £70 in every £100 may be paid for via Tax Credits) and Childcare Vouchers which cover approx £900 of costs per parent. I actually don’t think childcare is any more expensive in relation to income in fact it is less, than when I returned to work in 1993 having had my daughter.

I am sorry this is so long, I had a lot to say. If you would like to speak with me or indeed visit me you would be more than welcome.

**The Juggler** · 21-05-2012, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

That seems to be the case.

Daycare Trust chief executive Anand Shukla said that deregulating childminders would not solve the UK's childcare problems.

'We do not believe that the model implemented in the Netherlands since 2005 has worked, and indeed many of the changes have been reversed. The Dutch reforms led to lower quality childcare, did not increase the number of high quality childminders in the profession, as the increase in numbers was largely due to grandparents registering as childminders; did not have a noticeable impact on maternal employment; and saw bureaucracy increase, due to the introduction of a layer of agencies.

finally someone speaking some sense - let's hope the flippin tories listen to her

**mum26** · 21-05-2012, 05:27 PM

Brilliant e-mail rickysmiths - I hope she takes notice and gives a reply.

**loocyloo** · 21-05-2012, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

I have just sent her this email via her constituency page.

Good Afternoon Ms Truss,

I am a Registered Childminder who has been following you radio interviews and comments in the news today.

With the greatest of respect I don’t think from what you have been saying that you have the first idea what a Registered childminder is or how they work.

I have been registered for 18 years now. I first registered to be able to stay at home with my own two children who were 11 mths and 20 mths old. I had paid for my older child to go to a childminder when I returned to work when she was 6 mths old. Indeed it cost 60% of my wages and there was no help via Tax Credits or Childcare Vouchers for me to use the way there is for parents now. I realised it would not be possible to have two children in childcare and so I registered as a Childminder.

The process then was more straight forward than it is now. I did have expenses though, Public liability Insurance and reg fee with Social Services £10 per year. We did not pay for our First Aid Course. It didn’t cost me any extra on my Household Insurance or my car Insurance. I purchased a second hand double buggy for £35 and used my own children’s toys to start with. I took on a 16 week old baby every afternoon term time only. This suited me as I had the morning with my children and my husband is a teacher. I think I earned about £65 per week for the 39 weeks of term. I did no other training to be able to register though I did take advantage of training courses put on by my local SS Dept from time to time.

During the years from 1994 to 2001 I was inspected every year, I knew the Social Services staff (indeed I still get messages from my Registration Officer through a mutual friend), I could ask for help and advise, they knew me and my set up and it all worked very well.

In 2001 Ofsted took over. My goodness I was quaking in my boots just before my first inspection, something I had never done prior to this one. A young girl who didn’t know me or my set up ( I was 46yrs then so she seemed very young!) asked some ridiculous questions asked for most personal information and an enormous amount of paperwork so she could establish I was who I said I was. My Social services dept carried out a Police check on me every few years as they did during my registering process. Ofsted have never CRB checked me, not in 11 years! Why? Because they said when they took over in 2001 it was too expensive to CRB check all existing childminders so they didn’t !

The amount of paper evidence Ofsted required got more and more, partly because unlike the local Social Services, Ofsted inspectors come and go you never see the same one twice so you have to prove each time what you are doing, they seem incapable of recognising good practice when they see it. With the advent of EYFS in 2008 even more paperwork, a lot of it so Ofsted had written evidence of what good childminders have always done.

However, I do agree with EYFS as a good basic structure to work with and that all Early Years work with the same formula. We were given good training in Hertfordshire and there has always been good training opportunities in the County, though as with all things they are being reduced due to budget cuts. I have always been to training courses as I learn new skills and keep myself up to date and refreshed. During the last year I have also undertaken the Level Three Diploma Children and the Young People’s workforce. I do this and all the other training in my own unpaid time outside of the hours *****mind. I always did scrapbooks for my children so the Learning Journals we all do are just an extension of what I was doing anyway. All the Risk Assessments have added a huge amount of paperwork. I also feel sorry for new parents signing up for my services because of the number of forms they have to sign and the information they have to take in. It is good business practice and I wouldn’t do it any other way now.

Also since starting childminding the basic costs have risen, Ofsted annual fees £35 ( I actually think they should be more like £200pa), Information Commissioners Registration £35pa, If applicable A PPL Licence for music (approx£200pa), Public Liability Insurance approx £25-55pa depending on who you insure through. £100 every 3yrs for First Aid. The expectation of resources has increased so we are always adding to these and I don’t believe a new childminder would get away the same way as I did started by using their own children’s toys. I can absorb these costs in my fees because I have been lucky enough to be mainly full and I can claim expenses against Tax etc. Not all childminders are so lucky.
I have had three under fives five days and 50 hours a week and for a number of years and exception from Ofsted to have a fourth because they were a sibling, plus two before and after school. I then do all my paperwork and training, cleaning, washing,(sheets, blankets, car seat covers, buggy covers, towels) shopping (for food for mindees and buying resourses) on top of the 50 hours I spend with the children and am paid for.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not complaining, I love my work and would not still be doing it after 18 years if I didn’t, or without the support of my husband and two children because this all happens in their home.

I have always been graded good and for the last two inspections with some Outstanding areas as well and I am proud of that and have always worked hard to offer what I feel is an excellent service to my parents. I have worked longer hours than my local nurseries and I am working Sat and Sun at the moment as well which they do not. My fees are less than theirs.

Could you please explain why my local Nursery, who has never been graded higher than a Satisfactory, has not got the best reputation, is privately owned and a profit making business, could possibly be
qualified to inspect and regulate me? I think it should be the other way round and maybe the Nursery Standards would improve and benefit from my experience and high standards? I’m sure the ones on your Constituency would be delighted to do the job because they would be paid to do it. Goody, goody more profits for them and paid by me from my much smaller income! Maybe the Day Nurseries should also be told to reduce their high costs they way you are saying childminders whose earning potential is much less should do?

I think you need to spend a day with a childminder and see how their work differs from a day nursery and how 0- 3yr olds thrive with a good childminder . The way they go out and about in their local community and beyond (if you do visit a cm take some good walking shoes with you!) the way our local nurseries say they do but don’t. See how flexible we are, we offer wrap around care and care for 5- 13-14 yr olds, collect from school, take to brownies and cubs, something no day nursery can offer a parent or after school club. Babysitting services in the evening giving the parents continuity of care for their child. A month ago I was called at 4.30 am by a parents and went to their home to look after a mindee while mum went into hospital to have baby 2.

We have all worked so hard over the last few years with EYFS to become better trained and to match the work done in Nurseries and I believe good childminders have exceeded the standards offered by many nurseries. It would be a shame for our parents to de regulate us and so make us seem second best and not being registered no longer being able to accept Childcare Vouchers or parents who claim Tax Credits which would be a great disadvantage to childminders.

The Dutch Model adopted in 2005 has been proven not to work and they are currently changing what they are doing. Why are you so keen to support a failed model?

Can I be radicle and suggest that the government claw back some money by withdrawing all 2 and 3 year old funding except for those in extreme circumstances that need help, reduce Maternity benefits to six months and make it clear that if you left a full time job you expect to go back to a full time job as was the case when i had my children. I’m sure industry and particularly small companies would applaud this move. I know of several small companies who have found it very very hard when staff go on maternity leave.

Also when you talk about expensive childcare remind people that they can get tax credits which can pay up to 70% of their childcare costs for them (this never was mentioned by the ‘hard done by’ parents or yourself but means up to £70 in every £100 may be paid for via Tax Credits) and Childcare Vouchers which cover approx £900 of costs per parent. I actually don’t think childcare is any more expensive in relation to income in fact it is less, than when I returned to work in 1993 having had my daughter.

I am sorry this is so long, I had a lot to say. If you would like to speak with me or indeed visit me you would be more than welcome.

very well said xxx
hope she takes you up on the offer

**caz3007** · 21-05-2012, 05:31 PM

Great email RS, let us know if she replies

**mum2two** · 21-05-2012, 05:37 PM

Brilliant rickysmiths!

Hope she reads it, and you at least get a reply from her!

xx

BucksCM · 21-05-2012, 05:39 PM

Well put RS!!

**rickysmiths** · 21-05-2012, 05:58 PM

As soon as she does I'll post the reply. If she dares to visit I'll post the photos!!!

**loocyloo** · 21-05-2012, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by rickysmiths

As soon as she does I'll post the reply. If she dares to visit I'll post the photos!!!

**JCrakers** · 21-05-2012, 06:14 PM

This was my letter i sent earlier...

Dear Elizabeth,

I have been following your recent radio interviews and newspaper articles with concern. I am an Ofsted registered childminder in Leicestershire and would like to add my thoughts and concerns.
I have been childminding for nearly 5yrs and before this used to be a nanny in London. I am NNEB trained and love working with children.
I have 14 children attending my setting throughout the week and each child loves the care and attention they get. Being a childminder enables me to give the under 5's more 1-1 attention and by working to the EYFS guidelines means they are receiving the same professional and educational care that a nursery would offer.
As a childminder I can offer a safe, loving homelike environment where the children feel like family and this in turn helps them feel secure and in turn helps confidence. The care is consistent from baby to teenager and most of the children I care for have been here from the start. Bonds are made that will last well into adulthood, can you say that about a nursery?
I would like to ask if I was to take on more children how would this enable me to lower my fees? More children means more food, more activities and more wear and tear on my house and resources and most of all more energy.
I work a 10hr day, 5 days a week. Why would I lower prices and take on more work? These are children, we're not bulk buying. How would I ensure the safety of these 5 children when going out of the house?
In my town there is a huge number of childminders and also a lot of nurseries. We are not short on childcare but I'm not full so by enabling other people to become childminders will drive me and others out of business. Parents do seem to go for nurseries. For some reason a lot of parents don't know that we as childminders follow the eyfs and are inspected by Ofsted. They automatically chose a nursery first because they feel is more professional and educational. They don't know that childminders are equally as professional, cheaper and more flexible. A lot of parents are surprised when I actually tell them I'm Ofsted registered and I'm qualified. Maybe parents need to be told this.

Everyone wants cheap childcare but has anyone thought about the people who are actually doing the caring. Low wages and over worked is not a situation I want to be in. Neither do the children who are going to be put in this situation.I also have a family to support and have a right to earn a decent wage.
As for nurseries inspecting me, why would I want a nursery inspecting the way I do things when firstly I may be more qualified than them, my grading may be better than theirs and I work differently to a nursery which is why the parents chose me and not them. Neither would I want to be using an agency who would dictate my hours, wages and what children I can have. Why would I want to pay them a percentage of my low wages?
I feel you haven't thought through your ideas before laying them out to the public.The low cost childcare in the Netherlands that we are being compared to is not working.
Surely there needs to be another way of going about this.

**miffy** · 21-05-2012, 06:21 PM

[QUOTE=rickysmiths;1103478]That seems to be the case.

[COLOR="Blue"]Daycare Trust chief executive Anand Shukla said that deregulating childminders would not solve the UK's childcare problems.

'We do not believe that the model implemented in the Netherlands since 2005 has worked, and indeed many of the changes have been reversed. The Dutch reforms led to lower quality childcare, did not increase the number of high quality childminders in the profession, as the increase in numbers was largely due to grandparents registering as childminders; did not have a noticeable impact on maternal employment; and saw bureaucracy increase, due to the introduction of a layer of agencies.[/

Hope Ms Truss has seen this!

Miffy xx

**uf353432** · 21-05-2012, 06:49 PM

I just sent this:

Dear Ms Truss

I am an Ofsted Registered childminder based in Dorset, I have been childminding for 3 years. When the 40 odd thousand childminders left the industry citing that red tape had stifled them, I was the new breed of childminder that came into the industry to join the 38 thousand childminders who achieve good or outstanding in their inspections. I went into the job with my eyes wide open, embraced EYFS, regulations, paperwork. I take my job, my role in life of the families who use me and the community I serve very seriously indeed - and its probably the reason why the mere mention of your name in connection to childcare reform makes the knots in my neck ache with stress!

At present we have a system that has flaws - but fundamentally it is a good foundation. Since the introduction of regulation, inspections and EYFS Frameworks, we have made great advances in the childcare sector. In North Dorset, the local authority work in conjunction with NCMA to provide local training needs in line with local policy and priorities, they respond to serious case reviews and give grass roots support to all childminders. The proposal therefore to remove all that and replace it with a model from a country, who themselves recognize its failure, seems preposterous!!

I live in a rural setting, I manage my own business and I set my own terms. I am deeply offended that you want to introduce a failing model which probably will make my business unsustainable. You Tweeted today that you have spoken to 'lots of childminders including ones who had left' in response to someone else. The proposals you are supporting, I predict will see a great many childminders in that 38000 good and outstanding grading leave the field of childminding - with it you will have lost one of the best and most dedicated workforces. It won't be because they are no longer dedicated to childcare - it will be because you made the system so unfair that they could no longer sustain a business.

Please start speaking to the early years workforce, the ones who are working now. We do our job because we love what we do - but let us at least earn a modest income as well.

Best Wishes

**JCrakers** · 21-05-2012, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by uf353432

I just sent this:

Dear Ms Truss

I am an Ofsted Registered childminder based in Dorset, I have been childminding for 3 years. When the 40 odd thousand childminders left the industry citing that red tape had stifled them, I was the new breed of childminder that came into the industry to join the 38 thousand childminders who achieve good or outstanding in their inspections. I went into the job with my eyes wide open, embraced EYFS, regulations, paperwork. I take my job, my role in life of the families who use me and the community I serve very seriously indeed - and its probably the reason why the mere mention of your name in connection to childcare reform makes the knots in my neck ache with stress!

At present we have a system that has flaws - but fundamentally it is a good foundation. Since the introduction of regulation, inspections and EYFS Frameworks, we have made great advances in the childcare sector. In North Dorset, the local authority work in conjunction with NCMA to provide local training needs in line with local policy and priorities, they respond to serious case reviews and give grass roots support to all childminders. The proposal therefore to remove all that and replace it with a model from a country, who themselves recognize its failure, seems preposterous!!

I live in a rural setting, I manage my own business and I set my own terms. I am deeply offended that you want to introduce a failing model which probably will make my business unsustainable. You Tweeted today that you have spoken to 'lots of childminders including ones who had left' in response to someone else. The proposals you are supporting, I predict will see a great many childminders in that 38000 good and outstanding grading leave the field of childminding - with it you will have lost one of the best and most dedicated workforces. It won't be because they are no longer dedicated to childcare - it will be because you made the system so unfair that they could no longer sustain a business.

Please start speaking to the early years workforce, the ones who are working now. We do our job because we love what we do - but let us at least earn a modest income as well.

Best Wishes

Ooh I like it...much better than my waffle..straight to the point, no messin around

**loocyloo** · 21-05-2012, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by uf353432

I just sent this:

Dear Ms Truss

I am an Ofsted Registered childminder based in Dorset, I have been childminding for 3 years. When the 40 odd thousand childminders left the industry citing that red tape had stifled them, I was the new breed of childminder that came into the industry to join the 38 thousand childminders who achieve good or outstanding in their inspections. I went into the job with my eyes wide open, embraced EYFS, regulations, paperwork. I take my job, my role in life of the families who use me and the community I serve very seriously indeed - and its probably the reason why the mere mention of your name in connection to childcare reform makes the knots in my neck ache with stress!

At present we have a system that has flaws - but fundamentally it is a good foundation. Since the introduction of regulation, inspections and EYFS Frameworks, we have made great advances in the childcare sector. In North Dorset, the local authority work in conjunction with NCMA to provide local training needs in line with local policy and priorities, they respond to serious case reviews and give grass roots support to all childminders. The proposal therefore to remove all that and replace it with a model from a country, who themselves recognize its failure, seems preposterous!!

I live in a rural setting, I manage my own business and I set my own terms. I am deeply offended that you want to introduce a failing model which probably will make my business unsustainable. You Tweeted today that you have spoken to 'lots of childminders including ones who had left' in response to someone else. The proposals you are supporting, I predict will see a great many childminders in that 38000 good and outstanding grading leave the field of childminding - with it you will have lost one of the best and most dedicated workforces. It won't be because they are no longer dedicated to childcare - it will be because you made the system so unfair that they could no longer sustain a business.

Please start speaking to the early years workforce, the ones who are working now. We do our job because we love what we do - but let us at least earn a modest income as well.

Best Wishes

very good. and yours too Jcrackers! i go out for an hour ....